I am very excited to share my interview with Fox News Contributor and Senior NPR Political Correspondent Juan Williams with you today. Mr. Williams is one of my favorite pundits on the liberal side of the aisle. You may not always agree with his arguments or reasoning but you do have to respect him. I truly believe he always try’s to give his heartfelt and honest opinions.

My conversation with Mr. Williams only confirmed my high opinion of him. Before we started “rolling the tape” (and yes I remembered to turn the recorder on this time) he had asked me what type of questions I wanted to ask so he could prepare.  So I told him about a question I have wanted to ask him for over 3 years.

It was concerning the 2003 state of the union address delivered by George Bush. Several times during that speech I found myself crying. Now remember I had voted for Al Gore in 2000. George Bush had already done quite a bit to win me over after the attacks on September 11th 2001 but for some reason that speech sealed it for me. It had so many liberal themes in it; including a proposed $15 billion package over 5 years to combat AIDS in Africa.

Anyway Juan Williams was covering the speech for fox news with Brit Hume, and I think Fred Barnes. Brit turns to Juan and asks him what he thinks of the speech and I could swear he was on the point of tears and had to take a moment to compose himself before he spoke. His voice was noticeably shaky as he gave his analysis and I remember that moment so clearly. That Juan Williams a tried and true bonafide liberal was moved by that speech the same way I was. Something clicked inside and told me it must be ok for me to be moved by what I had always viewed as “an evil Republican”.

I asked Mr. Williams if I was right, if he was going to cry on air for a moment. Here was his reply:

“I wasn’t going to cry, was that the speech about aids? I remember being moved by that and moved by an American President and American heart, that we would do something for people so far away not because we had to but because it was right. That just typified the character of America for me.”

At that we were ready to officially begin our interview. I have edited out a some small parts of our conversation simply for space reasons (The interview ran much longer than I expected). If you are interested I will have a link up later to the complete transcript at the bottom of this post.

We touched on quite a few subjects in the interview. Williams told me he thinks the ACLU’s campaign to have crosses removed from city seals, and war memorials is excessive and possibly even paranoid. We discussed my definition of what American Liberalism is, and Williams agreed with me that for a long time now the new ideas and energy has been coming from the Republican Party. He also agrees that the Democratic Party’s opposition to school choice is detrimental and gives a detailed explanation as to why they oppose it.

We talk about his personal relationship with Brit Hume. Juan thinks very highly of his friend and colleague.  He thinks the charges that Fox News is a right wing or Republican news organization are unfounded and articulately counters the argument. He also speaks fondly of his boss Roger Ailes and credits him with luring him away from CNN and over to Fox at the inception of the new network.

I hope you enjoy my conversation with this sincere, humble and self described deeply religious man as much as I did. So without any more rambling on my part; here is my interview with Juan Williams.

Ugly: Well first of all just some background and I have read your bio on NPR. How long have you been working as a journalist.

 Juan: Oh my goodness you know that’s a great question Rick because the other day I was talking to someone I met and they said how long have you been in Washington?  And I said my god you know its 30 years. And then I stopped and I thought its 30 years this month or early next month that I arrived here from college as an intern for the Washington post. And I said oh my god you know I have lived here now longer than I have lived anywhere in my life and yet you know you still think home is where you came from. But now both my parents are gone and so you know its just one of those moments that inside your just oh my gosh 30 years so I have been in Washington journalism for 30 years and that includes starting out as a local reporter here in Washington. I started out covering night police so…that’s pretty low. The weather stories and obituaries. But before that I was a journalist in Philadelphia I worked my way through college at a paper called the Philadelphia bulletin which is now defunct but was the biggest paper in Philadelphia at the time. It was the afternoon paper.

Ugly: How did you end up getting on the political beat?

Juan: in Washington?

Ugly: Yeah.

Juan: well even in Philadelphia I had the good fortune to cover city hall while in college and that was a fabulous political story because it was Mayor Frank Rizzo if you will recall

Rizzo was quite the political dynamo and when I came to Washington; you know actually I was quite fascinated by the police and by local life. But then local politics was what first grabbed me as opposed to national politics. I watched national politics like I suppose the way most Americans do at a distance. But know local politics and know the intricacies the rivalries the egos, they always because I guess of my training in Philadelphia seemed to me to be much more vivid much more lively. And so when I came here in starting on the low end of the pole as I said to you writing about police activity, obituaries, the weather, Then I was able to move up the ladder on the metro which is what the local section of the Washington post is called and eventually I started covering the school board. And that took me into politics very strongly and then I started covering some of the mayoral races the city council and then as a result of that I went on to the editorial page of the paper, and even there focused again on local political coverage. And my work there I started doing columns and the columns initially because of the politics became more national and of course the Washington post is a local paper but it has a national impact because it’s in Washington. The stories and the issues that might have started locally for me then became national issues because I was in a national environment and people all around the country were reading the column. And what happened then was I went from there to the white house to cover the white house for the Washington post and that’s absolutely national and was covering Ronald Reagan. 

Ugly: There really is and you touched on it a little bit that there is a whole different level that we really don’t get to see on the news isn’t there, where opposing people just don’t like each other personally. Does that enter into it on a level that we just don’t get to see?

Juan: well I think you get to see it a lot actually but what it is Rick is that sometimes we forget that these are human beings, and the way that I might squabble with my sister, and we had sibling rivalries and all the rest: politicians squabble with each other and you know they are squabbling over things of consequence over power. So if you look right now in the environment that exists in Washington and you look at for example john McCain and someone like Senator Frist of Tennessee the majority leader. You know there is a certain rivalry there. Both men want to be the republican nominee for president of the United States. And so they have sort of a jaundiced eye on each other and their kind of trying to out strategize and out maneuver each other. But they are two human beings with ambitions with egos and they are in competition. There is no question about it.

Ugly: Now this is another thing going to the human aspect of it all. You and Brit go at it pretty much every time on either Fox news Sunday or if you are on the panel on his show. You guys get along on a personal level correct.

Juan laughing: Absolutely.

Ugly: Yeah And its interesting how some people are able to do that and some aren’t once the cameras stop rolling you guys go and have a cup of coffee or whatever.

Juan:  Well he once said to me it’s a little bit like pro wrestling.

We both laugh.

Ugly: Now how long have you been working at Fox and NPR respectively?
Have you been at fox since the beginning?

Juan: yeah pretty much fox is just over 10 years old and I have been there 10 years so I guess there might have been a couple Months or days when I wasn’t there but pretty much from the beginning and the reason is Roger Ailes. Who I just think the world of him and Roger had called and I was still working at CNN, and he said you know your contract is just about up have you thought about this and I said well Roger you know it’s a start up. He says yeah blah blah blah. And I just thought you know he is so much fun this is going to be an adventure. And my wife said to me you know at that point remember it’s a different world now but at that point my wife said to me but CNN is the brand name what are you doin?

I had been doing cross fire for them and Mike Kinsley had left the question was would I get the job full time would bill press get the job all that kind of thing and then you know I just said you know what I just like roger and I think that I think there’s lots of benefits to going into a deal on the ground level; where you could grow with them. And I think roger is such and energetic visionary force in TV. I said I am going to just try it you know? And that’s what happened there.

Ugly: Do you think fox is treated fairly by the rest of the mainstream media? I think its fair to call them mainstream media now. Do you think they are treated fairly and do you think the brand that they get as a right wing news organization is fair and accurate?

Juan: I don’t think it’s fair. The thing is that Fox gives you a point of view. I don’t think there is any question that Sean Hannity is a conservative I think Sean advertises himself as such and says that he’s giving you that point of view.

Now if you go to Bill O’Rielly I think Bill O’Rielly is just telling you what he thinks. He wants to be the sheriff in town and he is going to set people straight. And so I think Bill O’Rielly actually he bristles when people say oh you are a republican or you are a bush supporter. He says you know what he wants to do is he wants to assert that he is nobody’s man that he is an independent actor. Now most of the time I think that if you were trying to force him one way or the other you would say Bill O’Rielly is concerned about pedophiles or the excesses of Michael Moore. He tends to really get aggravated and exercised about the Michael Moore’s and Cindy Sheehan’s of the world. So I think if you were to try and force this issue one way or the other you would say well he tends to take after the demagogues of the left more so than the demagogues on the right. OK I think that would be fair.

But if you go down then to lets say Greta Van Sustren I don’t think you would know which way she is on the political spectrum. I don’t think you’d know where Sheppard smith is on the political spectrum. Brit comes at you from the right but when he’s hosting its in terms of the questions and the perspective as opposed to simply stating his opinion on special report his daily show. So I always say to people when they say to me Fox is more right or they say fox is right wing or is the Republican I say wait a second I don’t believe that, I don’t feel that way I don’t think they are telling anybody what to do or what to say.  I know they don’t do that to me. I have never heard anybody else at the network say you must say this or you must do this but I think that their attitude the Fox attitude that kind of edginess and the kind of willingness to contradict conventional wisdom to go the other way than the mainstream media has made them a place to watch. I think it’s made them sort of compelling television. It’s like oh I’m not getting this anywhere else. They are distinct. They are a unique entity in the media universe.

Ugly: So you think that’s been a good thing for news in general?

Juan:  Absolutely, you know people say to me sometimes well a lot of times Fox will be you know beating the horn for something one way or the other and I say well you know what there is lots of other media out there, and there’s lots of opportunity on Fox for people like me. I exist on fox for me to say hey wait a second I disagree I don’t think so I think that’s quite healthy. I always tell people that you know as a matter of an intellectual exercise I have been in so many places where I feel like I am in a box I am supposed to be people want me to be because I’m black oh your black you’re the liberal your this or that you know at fox its like so what do you think what do you really think. Tell us what you know we are not putting you in any box do you agree do you disagree. And The speech that you mentioned earlier about president bush’s state of the union I am free there to say you know I think that was a terrific speech and I felt touched by it I don’t have to feel like oh well your supposed to be the opposition in this situation. No to the contrary if I agree I can say I agree here is what my reporting experience in Washington my knowledge of the facts of the case my knowledge of the people in my reporting would lead me to think here is what I genuinely think you know what a gift that is for a journalist no games tell me what you think.

Ugly: Brit Hume to me he is the best interviewer on television.

Juan: Terrific

Ugly: Does he stand out to you versus other interviewers out there?

Juan: His intellect appeals to me so greatly. You know I think sometimes people don’t appreciate how smart this guy is. You know Brit is like a good chess player. He is thinking a couple of steps ahead he is reading people.

Ugly: I see that whenever you are making a point he is always over there just waiting to you know get back his next zinger.

Juan: Sure and you know when he and I are going at it you know he understand exactly the weakness in an argument the strength in an argument I feel like I am involved in a wonderful chess match with him every time. It’s my pleasure to debate Brit it really is. I mean sometimes he will frustrate me but it’s never it’s always on the matter. I just admire him greatly.

Ugly: Has he ever when you guys have your debates has he ever convinced you to come over to his opinion or have you ever convinced him you to say afterward you know you were right about that.

Juan: Oh sure I think from his perspective he convinces me more than I convince him.

We both laugh. 

Juan: but yes opinions have shifted and you know it happens actually I think more  off camera than on camera because we have such a short amount of time so what you get is sort of the first fire of people saying here’s what I think and here’s the hole in what you have to say. But then later you know as people have the opportunity to have a more protracted discussion and to consider the facts of the case you say yeah I see your point you know or I am gong to reconsider that. And so that happens between us.

Ugly: now you mentioned earlier how just recently you had reflected on how long you have been doing this. I am curious how many Senators Congressmen Presidents or Presidential hopefuls and has it struck you recently hey I am speaking with Senator so and so, or this guy might be the next President of the United States. Does it ever strike you the access you have to people of power.

Juan: you know I have had it for a little bit now so its one of those things I am glad you asked that question because it helps me in my heart just to remember how blessed I am to have that opportunity because I have spoken with Carter, obviously Reagan, Bush the 1st, Clinton, and Bush the 2nd.

Ugly: That’s amazing the most powerful men in the world in their time.

Juan: right and they take time and they sit and chat with me. And on the hill it would be hard to say who I don’t talk to. You know I sat down for lunch with Senator McCain just the other day. I have been over we talked about McCain and Frist and Senator Frist has had me in his office to discuss the back and forth. So I am very fortunate in that sense. I am not intimidated by it I guess because I have been doing it for so long and you must remember it’s a business. Its not about, they are not calling me up because they think I am such a smart; wise guy they are calling me up because I have access to Fox and NPR and they want their message to get out in terms of my reporting so it’s a business transaction but the fact is that they see me as someone they want to influence. I am very fortunate.

Ugly: I would like to ask you just a couple more questions here. I know religion is important to you personally, I am curious how you feel about the way some people in the media attempt to portray George Bush’s openness and his sincerity about his faith in a negative light does that upset you or concern you when you see that or do you think I am totally off base?

Juan: No I think its upsetting to me. I am sensitive to the idea that we don’t want a theocracy in this country. You know that everybody is welcome with every faith. But that does not mean that faith should be excluded from the public square. To the contrary I think it means that faith is something that strengthens us I think that gives us a sense of purpose or direction as to how we live our lives. And when you see George Bush being open about his faith there are people who want to be cynical and say that it’s a political gesture. All he’s doing is trying to signal the evangelical right that he is with them or that he is playing to their sensibilities. I think people who are evangelicals would feel patronized if that was the purpose. And I think they would be to some extent offended.

Ugly: you think they would recognize it if was insincere?

Juan: Sure it’s like if somebody says to you hey Rick I am crazy about you I love, you know if somebody’s not sincere, if they are just saying that, if they want something out of your pocket at that moment or they want you to do something for them.

Ugly: yep

Juan: Ok, So to my mind the idea that you have a president who goes to church regularly a president who read the bible a president who speaks even in his own biography about a sense of having a mission to keep. To me I don’t understand why people feel the need to put him down on that front. I mean I go to church regularly. I am very much a person who grew up in the church and I honor people who disagree and have different faiths even in my own family. But I don’t understand why anybody would want me to deny my faith or who I am or why they would want him to deny who he is?

Ugly: So do you admire George Bush in that respect in that he is unashamed of his faith and he is willing to discuss it openly?

Juan: When he is sincere absolutely.

Ugly: Do you think this fear of a theocracy that mainly comes from the left, there’s some on the right I guess but do you think those fears are well founded or do you think more than that its just an attempt to make political points?

Juan: Well we have to be in context here and I think that we are pretty far away because I don’t think that that has been in the air recently. But there have been moments I remember when people said you know they felt that this was going too far and I cant remember anyone at the moment Rick so if you have something in mind please tell me that would help me to become grounded in terms of the context of our conversation.

Ugly: Well for instance there have been several articles in the New York Times, Maureen Dowd in March 05 began her article with “Oh My god we really are in a theocracy” and three days later Frank Rich wrote under the god racket; government, culture science, medicine, and the rule of law are all under threat from the emboldened religious minority out to remake America according to its religious dogma.

**editors note** (thanks to Hugh Hewitt for those references in his book Painting The Map Red )

Juan:  Now was this around the time of the Terrie Schiavo, or the Stem Cell research debate?

Ugly: No I think it was around the time of the Terrie Schiavo debate, or incident however you want to call it.

Juan: Now here is a case I thought you know there were people who were trying to make hay out of the fact that people wanted to somehow tie it into the abortion debate in the society. And so I was highly critical of for example Senator Frist of his distant diagnosis of the case and as I said to you honestly I am a deeply religious person. So there are situations where I think people say well you know we are leary we are skeptical of why all the sudden you want to bring this in. I thought that Terri Schiavo had a husband, had a family. I think they should have all been respected.

Ugly: What about the ACLU and their on going campaign to get crosses removed from public places like war memorials, for instance they want it off the city seal in Las Cruces New Mexico The city is named the crosses. Do you think that’s a good thing or do you think they are kind of off base with that?

Juan: I think it’s excessive. You know I just think it’s much like court houses and the Ten Commandments. I have no problem with the Ten Commandments as a historical fact. We were founded by overwhelmingly Christian people but those Christian people the founding fathers made room for people of other faith. It was never about excluding or oppressing anybody that disagreed with the Christian faith. So I understand you know concern about having religion endorsed by government that’s not the purpose. But the question is why cant people some of whom are government officials express their own religious feeling and why is it that you would be so threatened by the people who founded Las Cruces or whatever overwhelmingly Christians and I am saying this without knowing the facts of the case.

Ugly: The name kind of lends itself to that assumption.

Juan: Ok, right that they would have put the cross in it would suggest that this was part of the vision they had in establishing the town, and so I think it becomes petty and almost paranoid at that point.

Ugly: Real quick and if you have to go that’s absolutely understandable. I would like to ask you about the definition of liberalism. I consider myself to be a liberal and to me in part that means having an open mind and being open to new ideas.

Juan: Absolutely

Ugly:  would you agree with me that the Democrats or the “Liberal party” in recent years have been kind of stuck in old thinking and to me it just seems like the new ideas are coming from the Republican side.

Juan: No your right. Remember the energy a lot of the energy I would guess since Newt Gingrich and the contract have come from the right and I think that’s why American have been voting for the right. In terms of new ideas and new visions the Democrats have been struggling to say what they stand for what is their vision? What are their ideas?

Ugly: And so often I hear them say, Harry Reid say it, Nancy Pelosi say it Bob Beckel your colleague on Fox say its not our job to have ideas we just need to be against what ever the republicans are for.

Juan: Oh No I don’t feel that way at all. I do not. I think you have to be clear about how you are, first to be comfortable with who you are. And then to be able to say to people follow me.  Here’s a better way, here’s an idea how we as an American people can prosper and grow and properly nurture our children.

Ugly: Is there any leader on the Democratic side that you can point to who is offering those new ideas right now?

Juan: Well I think there are lots of people. You know I am very impressed with Rom Emmanuel and he has been very clear about not just being in opposition recently he came out with 5 points about making example making post secondary education available to as many people as possible in the country. That that would be one of his goals. He came out and he was saying that we need to do something in terms of looking for alternative energy sources you know a new vision in terms of energy. President Bush has picked up on much of that. So I think there are people with ideas out there, and now you get people like Carval and Begala with a book about trying to articulate a democratic vision. But what it is overwhelmingly in terms of trying to assert this is that you have to overcome for the democrats the fact that there has been a void. They weren’t there saying to people here is what the future looks like from a democratic perspective. All that energy was coming from the Republicans for the longest time.

And I think now it’s been absent for so long people are like oh the democrats have an idea what was that let me hear that again. Oh I don’t remember what they said because if you said what’s the big idea to come from the Republicans over the last years you would have to say its tax cuts a willingness to cut taxes. You would have to say It’s making defense and protection of the country in the aftermath of 9/11 a priority an absolute priority. And people say oh I know that’s Republican I relate to that or if you went on the judicial side you’d say in terms of the conservative judges who don’t rule from the bench who strictly interpret the law that’s republicans right that’s their republican vision. So what its done is its boxed the Democrats into being defined into somehow opposed to national defense or being opposed to tax cuts or opposed to conservative judges and so the energy is all coming from the republicans and the democrats then find themselves in the position where liberal becomes a dirty word where Democrat becomes a dirty word.   And so the energy that needs to be put in place is where democrats say hey you know what were for making our schools better and making sure that kids get an education on the college level so that they can compete in this global society, or were for making sure that the elderly have a Medicare plan that works and here is our idea for how it can happen and its just taking a while because they haven’t been putting out real ideas for the longest time.

Ugly: One last quick question because you brought it up in your last answer. We do the  Democrats as a party oppose school choice?  I know some are in favor of it, why do they oppose school choice? it seems like such a good idea, and it seems like their constituents minorities, or blacks specifically want this.

Juan: Well you have to look at the eternal politics again I think the internal politics of school choice have been for the longest time well does that mean that you’ll be taking money out of public schools, and putting it into charter schools into vouchers that could be used at parochial, private schools all that. And there was fear that it would be draining funds schools from public schools. Secondly of course you have the teachers unions of course you have the teachers unions who are trying to protect their franchise and their employees. And they are a major constituent of the Democratic party. And then of course you have many of the civil rights groups who said wait a second were not gonna allow public schools to be diminished in anyway and we wanna stay with our colleagues in the Democratic party the teachers unions the teacher activists who have helped with the problems our children’s have faced.

But I think that if you look at the numbers you look at the polls to me parents are looking for solutions again they are looking for real ideas real alternatives to so they can get their children  out of failing schools and how could you deny any child the opportunity to get an education. So that’s why it seems to be so obvious as you said you have got to give parents without regard to their economic status the ability to educate their children if their children are to believe in our country and believe in their own future. So I just think it’s a great idea. You know it has to be done right. And also I am the last guy to say give up on public schools but you have got to have public schools that work so you have to be innovative creative in how we go about making sure that public schools deliver on their services. Now that’s why from coast to coast I have said I am not one to put down President Bush’s no child left behind. I think President Bush is to be commended for having gotten out and said you know what you look at the big city schools in our country. They’re not doing the job lets make sure that children who graduate from these schools are able to read do math be able to understand a map and geography. Let’s make sure let’s have accountability standards. People say oh no that means that people start teaching to the test. I say wait a second you mean you are willing to accept that children would graduate and not be able to do those things. What are you saying about those kids? What are you saying about our country? Anyway that’s the way I feel I just think you have got to have some standards and you have got to have the willingness to innovate; to change. You cant simply say oh yeah we are going to keep it the way it is and defend it in the name of every body loves public schools people do love public schools public schools are great but we have got to improve them.

 End of Interview.
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